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 Post subject: Re: Some Clown Locked The Topic
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 1:15 pm 
Second Lieutenant
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No, Ping, I have first hand evidence.

Seth SAID he punished people before they did anything wrong because he expected they would do wrong (in his view, and inappropriately so to boot) soon enough anyway.

You were here, live, and have no better basis for comment than I have. I have Seth's words that he acted on people who had done ZERO wrong because he felt they eventually would do something wrong. Now, we've not really debated the merits of the bans he gave to people he had judged to have done something wrong, which, themselves were tragically tortured.

When an admin says what someone did was "arguably" farming, it means there's an argument it isn't, and, well, probably no rule was violated at all, given there's an argument and all. Ignoring that, you persist in ignoring what Seth has said here.

1. He banned some people who'd done nothing wrong because he expected they would soon.

2. He'll always ban people before he can prove they've done something wrong because people ask him to.

3. The people he did act against had an argument to make, but he didn't let them, he banned them and then let them make it.

What motives to you have to ignore those three things?

Focus mostly on the first two, as the third we've not really touched. The plain and simple fact is you are more hyper partisan to Kevin than I am as I rationally think he's a BD genius who is the shizzle and yet is a flawed, somewhat myopic person who displays inconsistent tendencies. You view him as someone you'd trust your "life" with as you've said.

It's ok to call bull even on a friend.

Kevin believes his bull and I don't hold it against him, but, what Seth does is, flatly, purely, wrong.

An admin came here and told you he banned people he thought would eventually do something wrong.

You need to jump up and down and demand he stop that nonsense, even when it helps you.


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 Post subject: Re: Some Clown Locked The Topic
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 1:21 pm 
Major
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Quote:
It was against the spirit of the game, but merely to reverse the previous flaw. I shouldn't have been locked down because my computer was not as quick on the 7th race. You can win 6 races and have just an OP to show for it, lose 1 race and your whole army dies. Is that fair? No. So I fixed it.



What we did was not against the spirit of the game in any way. The spirit of the game is to use strategy as much as you can. If we had equal amount of squads as you, we wouldnt have done it. But outnumbered we had to get a bit innovative and there is nothing wrong with thinking up something out of the box. This is what we did, and it perfectly stays in the spirit of the game. What you did was use a known loophole. What we did was uncover a loophole that even we didn't know was one. It makes us that much more innocent.

Quote:
The slave colonies made it abuse.


Like I said before, nothing in the ToS, or any other rule or opinion so far stated in BD, has ever stated that these colonies were slave colonies. They were valid colonies and it was a valid tactic.

Quote:
They did not do it of their own accord. You told them to place at x coordinates, and build x structures to be ready for x plan. It was not against BD rules, as far as the tactic goes, but using the colonies in the way that you did were indeed against the rules as specified by the creator of the game.


The creator of the game did not specify anything against this particular tactic. It was a loophole that came to light after we did it. And the colonies would not have done what they did without being willing to do it. Unless they were multies, but its clear they were not.

Quote:
They weren't players quitting though, they were slaves who had served their purpose. Hence the difference. Writing it in a paragraph 10 times as long doesn't change simple facts.


It still doesnt make any difference. How long a colony should stay in an alliance is not listed anywhere. Heck a colony can stay just 1 tick, leave and give crystals. That is NOT against the rules anywhere. Calling them slave colonies repeatedly does not make them one.

Quote:
He built to be a gate, he joined and was booted. After serving his purpose he was conquered. Classic slave abuse. Get a clue.


Slave colonies are used for the purposes of resources or spamming. According to the rules. We used him as a member, and he performed a members function. I.e let us use his gates. Get it right.

Quote:
The fact that it abused the speed and freedom of a "new colony" is what made it slave abuse. So indeed it was a violation as indicated by the creator of the game.


It still does not make it slave abuse. He joined as soon as he dropped protection. That is not against the rules by any means. Neither the creator of the game, nor the admins or the developers have defined such a colony as a slave ever.

Quote:
Slave colonies have been addressed dozens of times before this, and it's something severe as it drastically changed the flow of the game, while mine did not.


Ive said this numerous times. Single purpose colonies used for the sake of other things than resources are not slaves. They are legitimate members that did their job.

Quote:
The OPs were upgraded by them into silos, which your team then took to use against us. Your leader took a good deal of them. One of the multis had 30 OPs built by him alone. BD is not a game about who can get the most friends to abuse us the most free resources. Learn to play legitimately.


Yes they were supposed to build nukes and nuke you, just like your subs sent nukes to us. Nothing wrong with that. They were not marked blue, so Avi went ahead and took it, against Dees telling people not to. That is also not a violation.

Quote:
Who said it was your option to be removed? The relic placement was random and you had no more right to it than we did. You decided to attack it. Your fault.


Again, I never said we assumed it was ours. I never said, you didnt have a right to claim it as much as we did, or anyone else did for that matter. My only concern was that we should have been able to nuke or ion those relics. Which is perfectly legal and it is what you would do if you had to kill units more effectively.

As for the rest of the points, I would reiterate them. They werent slaves. And it was not farming.Farming is large scale resource harvesting and that is what the ToS say. This wasnt the case here.

Of course in warfare you want the balance of the game to tip in your favor to win. Everyone knows this. Our original plan was for us to attack Africa while making you lose SA. But obviously Seth was too quick to intervene and ruin everything. That does not however make anything illegal.

Quote:
There was enough proof for the ban, considering the creator and primary admin said so. Play on a different server if you don't like the interpretation.


The primary admin was wrong. There was no proof. The ToS were misinterpreted. Ill play where I want, but there has to be only one interpretation of rules everywhere. That is the whole point of the argument. Saying E4 will have its own rules just doesnt make any sense and is totally unfair.

Quote:
I don't care if you are disappointed. You are one to share passwords, abuse farms, and use slave colonies. I try to play the game as clean as I can. I will never take lessons in morality from you. I play in a legitimate way and stray only to auto-correct things back into line with how they should be. I have a very strong belief in how things should be done and it has served me well over the many years I have played. If you disagree, you are free to be wrong. You tried a trick and stumbled through it with using slave colonies, which opened those two players to being banned. They were no longer vital to your plans, so the level of hate here on the forums is ridiculous. Obviously you're displacing your frustration from the era on Seth and it's not fair.


You dont need to care that I am dissapointed. We didnt share passwords, abuse farms or use slave colonies. Just because someone interpreted them as such does not mean we did it. SEcondly I am not teaching you any lessons in morality. I dont believe in morality ingame, I have my own sense of integrity and I am at peace with myself, unlike you that maybe has the need to prove something to someone. I am totally not frustrated with the era. The only frustration if at all I have, was the fact that we were not let to fight because of Seths actions, as I am not one to shy away from a battle. If you misinterpret arguments as hatred, you are free to do so, I am not here to change opinions, just state mine. But it shows, that you are being childish and immature over a game, and again it isnt my problem. Its solely yours. But personal opinion here and that too out of goodwill, because obviously you dont consider us friends anymore - Its probably time you quit the game and took a deeper look at how much this game is important to you, your ego and your self esteem. You'd be apalled. You might go on to type a rude or an insulting comment, but that doesnt change the truth now, does it? Maybe its because of that you choose to call your actions "Bringing a flaw to light" and what we did as a "violation".

BTW You play the game well alright. But you certainly pull every trick in the book and you have done things similar. So I wouldnt add too much of credibility to your repeated accusations of dirty tactics.

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 Post subject: Re: Some Clown Locked The Topic
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 1:29 pm 
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Oluvai wrote:
WhatILacked wrote:

So your proposing that NOTHING should have been done simply because it had not happened "yet" when it was clear what was happening.

If I phoned the police right now and reported a group of men looking very shady approaching a house that i knew the owners we're on holiday holding a crow bar or such an item. Obviously with the intent of breaking in, The police on the phone would not tell me to wait until they have robbed the house then phone back when all of their possessions we're gone. They would step in and attempt to prevent the crime, that is all the seth has done. He has done nothing 'wrong'.


Poor analogy.

The police may send a squad car to investigate. They may approach the men and ask them what's happening. They may be told the men suffered a flat tire half a mile down the road. They had the crow bar and came to the first house to see if someone was there to call AAA for them, as they discovered they lacked the jack.

They may leave with a thanks and handshakes.

Or they may ask the men to move on, finding their story suspicious.

But, they would not jail them before they'd done anything at all, as it is not against the law to be in the lawn of someone who is not home (and there's no reason to believe you could know they are not home or are home) with a crow bar. It is not even illegal to think of using that crow bar to break in to a house and steal stuff.

It IS illegal to actually do it.

And even once you do it, there are methods in our system to allow you to defend yourself which do not exist in BD. That all power of observation, warning, and execution of punishment exists in one person in BD is all the more reason that person MUST have fixed knowledge AND utilize his time to engage the people before taking action.

In this case it's not like he could argue the people weren't there available to him. They were actively moving ships. Talk to them.


You misunderstood my analogy, The point I was putting across is that the person phoning the police reported the suspicion. If the police did not respond by sending someone out and they HAD in fact been robbed it would have been the polices fault for the robbery. Whereas if they react with the force needed too the atrocity could be avoided and the property owners possessions would remain safe. And to use the "Crowbar" as the Gate for the scenario it is illegal to carry that crowbar around (In the UK at least) because you cannot posses a weapon in public. This is the same for the gate which was planned from the multi, It should not have been built for that soul purpose. It gives an unfair advantage.

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 Post subject: Re: Some Clown Locked The Topic
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 1:39 pm 
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Anyway fellas, I am done with this topic and with BD for the next 6 months or so. Have bigger fish to fry. :D

So here to all GIFT members:

Congrats on a good game. This was a big money round, and pity it had to end like this. You are all great players, so I dont wanna quit with a grudge. Wish all of you well. Have a good one now and in the future.

And my team: I love you all !! :D Enough said. Ill be on Skype and MSN as usual anyway on our group chat :) and we'd be havin fun! :D

PS: Lemme come after 6 months and see if something is for the better.

Everyone else, keep in touch. Peace out.

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 Post subject: Re: Some Clown Locked The Topic
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 1:41 pm 
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As I was part of the reason this topic was started, let me make one thing clear. This to me is not about whether Gift victory is deserved - it is. It is not about arguing with Kevin about the philosophy of merit and morals BD-style. Everyone knows when you argue with Kevin you end up in a mental institution or just accept what he says for the sake of your sanity.

This is about admins and their role in the game. Let me make something clear...admins are here to RENDER US A SERVICE. We are the clients they are employed to enhance and ensure our gaming experience. Their role is to make sure the servers run smoothly and that PROVEN ABUSE or SET RULES is avoided.

At no time should an admin make value judgments, subjective decisions or any other kind of ad-hoc enforcement of imaginary rules based on their erotic fantasies.

All seth did wads ruin an era for two great alliances and for everyone else playing, by taking things into his own hands when noone asked him to and by making random bans which cost me my army, BD one of its top donors and E4 a great era ending.

So by all means seth and all other admins get it through your heads: we do not need, want or care for your value judgments. Any ban for other than proven abuse is unfair, uncalled for and detrimental to the game.

Personally I will never play another era where Seth is admin as long as he does not apologize for what he did and make a clear commitment to never interfere with the game in his sole discretion again.

We are clients, you are here to service us. As simple as that. When we want value judgments and foresight from admins we will ask for it...till then do what you are paid for and stop ruining BD.

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 Post subject: Re: Some Clown Locked The Topic
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 1:49 pm 
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In this scenario, I am sorry we do not see eye to eye. I do not feel I was wrong in the course of action I chose. I do see the points you are attempting to make, however aggressively, so maybe Ill think it out and put it to a test. Ill post a poll up asking if we should allow slave abuse for purposes like

1.)having friends from other worlds (or out of the blue for that matter) join specifically to be gate nodes in or near your alliance hive at a whim without the fear of repercussion as long as they do not share an IP address

2.)providing free and easy conquers for the purpose not only of conquering, but also to spy, ion, nuke and spam squad attack when it offers strategic benefit, as long as the colonies dont share an IP address?

3.)be allowed to occasional be liberated by the conqueror, to be allowed into the alliance, trade off all resources that have accumulated, be booted again to make room for more colonies like this, as long as the colonies do not share the same IP address.


I mean really, we are going to allow it or we are not. There is no straddling the fence on this one. Not if you are going to realistically hope to police any such action in an environment that promotes it. With as much of it as would ensue, differentiating the legit from the not legit would become impossible. Especially if you understand how to jump around on IPs. IPs are the only black and white evidence that exists. (Everything else goes back to the admin making a judgement call) You would be untouchable!

So what do you think? A poll is in order?


Also, cosmin, I am sorry to have to have acted against you. I am told you are a really cool guy, and I think I remember doing some customer service for you in the past, although Im not quite sure what for. Believe me when I say that it was not a decision I enjoyed making.

I have an interesting question. Where are the slave accounts in all of this? I have yet to hear either of them in this thread? Or did I miss it?







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 Post subject: Re: Some Clown Locked The Topic
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 1:56 pm 
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By all means seth...do the poll.

But more importantly IMPLEMENT any restrictions you decide are needed in-game. Keep people who join from having operational gate for 24 ticks. Keep people who join from sending or receiving resources for 100 ticks - which you already did. Keep conquered people to be used as gates.

if you want something done do it via the game interface...not by your random calls.

You ruined my era with your 6 tick ban and you know it. Nothing to do about it now. I don't even want compensation. My punishment is not spending another cent in BD till i see some progress, more clear rules and less discretion for admins to issue bans as they please.

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 Post subject: Re: Some Clown Locked The Topic
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 1:58 pm 
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May i come in to this topic i no most of you are far better players than me in this dispute but there is more to this than any one thing i do believe that the admins do ther best yes there is problems and yes alot of the ideas could come in handy But i believe there is just not anough staff i do not believe that the administration gets time to play the game they work so hard on and i have an idea to this why cant there be more staff if there where more staff there would be less problems i believe one problem would be multis i have a mark on my profile most likely it is for being a multi if i do i had to fight the case for two weeks it was horrible but the reason being is i live in a hotel so same ip address i was in the middle of creating a BD fansite when it happened and do to the admin wich banned me potroles so many worlds he could not get to me as fast as i would have liked i went from a top rank with no tokens because i have never one a era and have no money to donate with the american econemy how it is so my era was messed up as well no offense but what happened is i think i fanally prooved my case so i was allowed back on but i lost the era had no compensation as promised for a false ban now i have a bad rap on my sheet do to that one instense so i dought i will ever even be able to do more than just poste and blog and it was do to the admins being over worked and underappreciated i believe that they are doing a good job but there is just not anough staff i will not quite just because of flaws or anything and i hope the admins stay just it would be nice if there where more because i have been to hundreds of online games and sorry to say but there is only one game that i could think of that has admins that interact and its just not fun its a pokemon game the admins play with you and they can be your friends i no because my little brother is always playing it when i come over and im sure most of the older BD players dt want to play pokemon so i think we should all give a little more thanks to the admis for doing what they do to make it possible to do what we do because it could be worse than this there could be no admins and no way to talk just the game and it all be the exact same era after era so thankyou to the admins of BattleDawn.com

i would love to no what you think outside of this post message me and we could have more discussions

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Last edited by shelton9778 on Wed Aug 24, 2011 2:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Some Clown Locked The Topic
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 2:02 pm 
Lieutenant Major
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Quote:
for admins to issue bans as they please.


Please stop trying to insinuate that this somehow pleases me. Nothing about this mess pleases me.

EDIT: You have prior warnings / offenses on your account for the same issue. It is standard practice to issue temporary bans on second and 3rd offenses before resolving to permanantly ban.

There are several notes on your account, but there is one that deals with this issue in particular.


Thu May 19, 2011 7:35 pm Entry added:
» You were banned by the admin on Earth 1 for the following reason:
-------------------- Banned for creating/supporting spam colonies.


Therefore, it is reasonable that you should have known that this would, at the very VERY least, raise an eyebrow from me. Especially since I have an apparent reputation for being "smug, arrogant, combative, etc."

Pardon me if I sleepwalk or something, but I do not remember twisting your arm to do this? Espcially without even so much as a "hey, would I be out of line and get banned again if...?" letter before hand.


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 Post subject: Re: Some Clown Locked The Topic
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 2:07 pm 
Second Lieutenant
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same here...so we all agree that this is a fine mess and a lose-lose for everyone

now let's try and fix it somehow shall we?

i said what i had to say...take care

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